Dear Jayantilal,
The organizers of WikiConference India have already shared https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_India_2023/Discussions_and_Feedback more details about the event including staff engagement. Others invited you https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/NFZWXYLNF74FOEL2YIELHD4QKZDPU3J6/ to follow up on the talk page.
CIS also responded to your question https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/BH2BUNYSV7BCNJFNMUW3MFTDGQKDEW3W/ on the list. For your thoughts on their proposal, you can follow up on the grant page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Programs/Wikimedia_Community_Fund/Centre_for_Internet_and_Society%27s_annual_work_plan_for_2023-2024. Please note decisions about funding are made by the regional funding committee https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Regions/South_Asia#Regional_Committee of volunteers and not by Wikimedia Foundation staff.
For your questions about hiring practices, you can read more here https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/05/03/building-a-global-staff-community-at-the-wikimedia-foundation/. If you have a question about existing projects, do feel free to contact that project's leads.
Your latest question about scholarships combines affiliate staff and contractors with Foundation staff and contractors. To clarify, staff and contractors of the Foundation are not eligible for scholarships based on their paid work.
Often though, staff and contractors of the Foundation come from the community itself and actively contribute to community initiatives as volunteers, and represent that work during different conferences.
Best regards,
*Belinda Mbambo* Senior Manager: Global Movement Communications Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Jayantilal Kothari [email protected] Date: Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 3:58 PM Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Request for Transparency Regarding WMF Staff in India
Dear Maryana Iskander and Wikimedia Foundation,
I hope I am not disturbing you or have asked you to be in some place which I should not have. Please note that my concerns are only in good faith and not anything more. Earlier also WMF staff have asked community members to respond on the mailing list and I have not done anything new. Why can't you reply ? If you cannot reply then why you cannot atleast acknowledge.
Staff continues to take over community work. Some staff are on scholarship to the Education Conference in Europe as volunteers, some for Wiki Loves Monuments Team discussion, some CIS staff in Universal Code Committee etc. Everything cannot be like they are doing in their individual capacity. Please note WMF contractors also take salaries which are higher than the average Indian salary. It is high time that a policy needs to come up on this with community discussion. Many people have said the same on this mailing list. Even if they are allowed, let there be a clear cut policy. Everything cannot be done by saying what they are doing in their individual capacity. If you cannot have volunteers who are only volunteers and not any full time or contractor or with CIS then what is the point.
One more person who was a volunteer at Wiki Conference has now become CIS staff. Job announcement came on 31st July 2022 and recruitment in May 2023. So late but they do not care to reply back. I also wanted to ask them if they will do hardware support in their grant but they did not reply. They have a budget of 1 Crore, 75 Lakhs, 82 Thousand and 4 Hundred. This is too much. If they do not want to give hardware then they should atleast talk to the community and share a plan. I will repeat from what I had said before, "This message is a reminder about the necessity of listening when the community needs to be heard, not just when it's convenient. It's a plea for transparency and accountability—cornerstones of our community and the Wikimedia movement.”
On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 2:51 AM, effe iets anders [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jayantilal,
as I'm reading this, mostly as an outsider from a different community who has great appreciation for everything that has been accomplished in various communities in India, I can feel the tension. This is unfortunately nothing new, and it's an ongoing balance that has to be struck between helping out as a staff member on one hand, and not undercutting the community to organize itself on the other. This is a challenge, even with the best of intentions. This only gets harder when there is a (real or perceived) struggle for influence/power. I have come to understand that India is an even more complex situation, due to the influence of CIS.
I noticed that the WCI organizers have put forward https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_India_2023/Discussions_and_Fe... in response to this thread. It might be beneficial for the conversation to try and follow up with this attempt to conversation, and see how far you get with regards to the transparency that you seek. If you can achieve this without the intervention of Maryana, this is probably more advantageous for everyone involved. That does not mean you have to agree with what is desirable, but at least you would be able to work from a common base of facts/information.
If there are aspects on that page that are possibly misleading from your point of view, or simply information that is missing, you might be interested in bringing this up on the talkpage.
Just a thought,
Lodewijk
On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 2:04 PM Jayantilal Kothari < [email protected]> wrote:
Dear Maryana,
Your Listening Tour has been a commendable initiative to understand the voice of the community. However, the essence of listening lies in its responsiveness.
Over ten days ago, we raised concerns that unfortunately remain unaddressed. This isn't a single person sentiment but a collective voice from the Indian Wikimedia community, a voice that has grown stronger since the recent Wiki Conference India.
We're concerned about the WMF India staff's involvement in community-led events, notably the Wiki Conference India. While their participation is welcome, there's a growing perception of encroachment on community-led initiatives. The community's autonomy is being compromised, and several experienced community members have voiced this concern on the public mailing list.
Furthermore, we've observed that the WMF India Staff is assisting community members in crafting emails and guiding them on how to handle this mailing list situation. As a community, we believe in the ability of our members to speak for themselves. Currently, it appears that only those on the WMF payroll—either through grant salary/contract or through WMF-funded CIS salary—are speaking on behalf of Wiki Conference India, seemingly under the guidance of WMF Staff India. We urge WMF India Staff to step back and allow the community to voice their concerns independently. Check the Wiki Conference India Team on Meta. Most of them are drawing salaries from WMF or CIS or have been previous employees in the last 5 years. Very few are people who have always been volunteers. Many of them have also not written WMF against their name because they say they did this conference as volunteers. Was there no volunteer to come forward and organize? This means WMF staff have not been able to grow the community.
We wish to understand the roles, responsibilities, and contributions of the WMF India staff who actively participated in the Wiki Conference India. Being paid by funds raised through volunteer-built platforms like Wikipedia, their active participation in community spaces calls for higher accountability.
WMF has spent so much money on Strategy 2030 but the India Conference had no session on it why? India is not important or what? Sunday there was a session on Strategy 2030 but it was removed without telling participants. Why?
We would like to clarify that this is not a request for personal information—since the identities of these staff members are already publicly known—but a call for professional transparency, as we seek to understand their specific roles and contributions. If these staff members were comfortable taking to the stage and receiving credit at the conference, they should be equally comfortable sharing the scope and impact of their work with the community that they serve. Their willingness to be in the public eye during the conference should extend to their professional commitments and achievements. We're keen to know about the partnerships they've formed over the past few years that have benefited Indian communities, the initiatives the communications team has launched beyond financial incentives for Instagram users, the community projects undertaken by other staff members, negative response on fundraising and the hiring practices aimed at empowering local user groups.
Considering the nature of these questions, we're interested in understanding your strategy for obtaining an unbiased picture of the situation. If the primary sources of feedback are the WMF India staff or their superiors, it might be influenced by the very concern we raise.
This message is a reminder about the necessity of listening when the community needs to be heard, not just when it's convenient. It's a plea for transparency and accountability—cornerstones of our community and the Wikimedia movement.
We understand that you might be busy, but we would appreciate at least an acknowledgment of this email, assuring us that our concerns have been heard and will be addressed.
We look forward to your acknowledgment and response.
On Sun, 14 May 2023 at 3:52 AM, Shyamal Bagchi [email protected] wrote:
My emails are also being censored. Why is this happening and who is doing it ?
On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 00:51, Wiki Prasad [email protected] wrote:
i say same thing, my email not posted. it is censored.
*Sent:* Monday, May 08, 2023 at 4:48 AM *From:* "Jayantilal Kothari" [email protected] *To:* "Wikimedia India Community list" < [email protected]>, [email protected] *Subject:* [Wikimediaindia-l] Request for Transparency Regarding WMF Staff in India Hello WCI 2023 Organizing team,
First of all, thank you for hosting the event. I appreciate your willingness to engage in discussions and provide clarifications on concerns related to the conference. However, I would like to remind you that this email thread is specifically addressed to the Wikimedia Foundation and Maryana Iskander.
I am curious if the Maryana/WMF has requested your team or given authorization for you to justify or defend their actions in this matter. As this thread focuses on WMF's actions and decisions in relation to the Indian community, it is crucial to maintain separate discussions for separate issues to ensure productive and organized conversations. I kindly request that you start a separate email thread or Meta-Wiki discussion for addressing concerns related to the conference itself.
Let's give the WMF the opportunity to address the concerns raised here directly. Thank you for your understanding, and once again, congratulations on organizing a successful event.
On Sun, 7 May 2023 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Kolbe [email protected] wrote:
Dear Bodhisattwa,
Thank you for your reply.
While Wiki[p/m]edia started out as a pure volunteer project, it has long occupied a sometimes uneasy position between some of the biggest and most valuable companies on earth, who use our free content to make money, and volunteers working for love. This makes culture clashes of some sort or another inevitable. I don't have a solution.
I also suspect that you have a point with the "white guilt". What this means, of course, is that people are still not "seen".
If you ever feel like writing an op-ed or report about these matters for the Wikipedia Signpost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost, please feel free to send me a mail or just drop into our Newsroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom. The Signpost hardly ever has content about India, let alone content written by Indian contributors. (The issue due to be published in a few hours' time is a rare exception.) It would be great to see that change.
Best, Andreas (User:Jayen466)
On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 6:55 PM Bodhisattwa < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Andreas,
There is no denial that money is needed in our region to run programs but there should always be a critical debate, if we are asking too much amount and for the right cause. I can't talk about others but I come from a cross-border language community which has always shown high regards to the value of donation money and expressed concerns in the past, whenever it has felt that money asked in a grant proposal is out of proportionate. So, whenever a grant proposal comes from my language community or from the two affiliates of the region, we brainstorm for days, if not months, to understand if there remains any small chance to waste the valuable resources which are to be entrusted upon us. For example, questions naturally arises in our community that if we really need to or have the luxury to spend this huge amount of around 10 million INR just for a 3-days conference to meet and greet each other after a long time or could that amount of money be invested on local affiliates and communities so that they can sustain themselves and provide quality output for the next decade. There has always been this debate and the people who talked about the second option are quietly moving away from the movement as they were not heard properly or were targeted for their critical analysis. We strongly feel that throwing unnecessary amount of money to whatever proposal comes over from the region is detrimental to the community dynamics as these money spoils people in the communities, brings more mistrusts and corruption and changes the motivation to contribute to the open knowledge movement. Also, huge amount of money does not necessarily translate to delivery of high quality output all the time, good results can come from limited resources too, even with zero budget, if they are planned properly; there are numerous success stories in our movement of those, which are rarely acknowledged or celebrated.
What we feel that there might be some 'white guilt' working in the background to reverse colonial sins from the past in the regions which might drive people from the west to approve more money in Africa and Asia without consideration of local inputs. Any voices against these western perspectives to flood local communities with huge amount of unnecessary money are marked as counter-productive, ignored, silenced and bypassed with different regulatory measures imposed upon the community until people stop criticising and get fed up of being ignored. For example, personally, I have developed apathy nowadays regarding whatever is happening around grant process western to our state border of West Bengal until they directly affects us and prefer to remain silent during their community review process.
By the way, I have no objection hiring WMF staffs from the region. In fact, a number of staffs and contractors from the region are and were highly respected for their support and understanding of the local communities. But all are not beds of roses. There are multiple evidences of opacities, ignorance, agenda pushing, bossing around, corporate mentality, hijacking of community plans and projects etc. among staffs, which builds walls of mistrusts separating them with the volunteers rather than breaking them. I can't disagree to what Jayantilal implied in his statement. So, to me, staffs are always welcome, but if they have no intention to listen and support for community needs, then we frankly don't need them around our communities to push their own agenda, we can manage ourselves.
Regards, Bodhisattwa
On Thu, May 4, 2023, 18:30 Andreas Kolbe [email protected] wrote:
> Hi Bodhisattwa and all, > > You raise an interesting point – that the influx of money appears to > have a demotivating effect on Indian volunteers. This has also come up in > discussion elsewhere. > > Now I have been one of those who have urged the WMF to spend more > money in India. I have always felt that actual spending on the ground has > not matched the Foundation's fundraising messages about how money is > urgently needed to build capacity in Indian and African languages. And I > have argued that hiring staff in India, e.g., makes more sense than hiring > staff in the US, where salary expectations may run to hundreds of thousands > of dollars per year. > > How would you resolve these competing considerations? > > Regards, > Andreas (Jayen466) > > On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 3:21 AM Bodhisattwa < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Coincidentally, just yesterday afternoon, when we were having a >> meeting in Kolkata with volunteers from West Bengal and Bangladesh, these >> concerns came up among other things. We were wondering about the visible >> impact of the increasing number of WMF staffs in India to improve our >> editing and reading experiences, significant partnership development or >> strengthening the communities in the last few years and if they have any >> impact at all in our language community to make our life easier as >> volunteers. >> >> Anyway, if the volunteer communities or team of organizers are not >> strong and vigilant enough, there is always a chance to get something >> hijacked by staffs. This is not new; it has happened before a number of >> times and it will happen a lot more in the future. This could not be >> avoided as I feel the spirit of volunteerism in the Indian communities is >> much much weaker than the past and dying, if not already dead in some of >> the cases. In the last few years, I have seen long term trusted community >> members from all over the country leave the movement frustrated, heart >> broken and exhausted, including from my language community. Increasing flow >> of unnecessary money are rapidly changing the motivation of volunteers with >> a strange notion prevailing nowadays that money is the solution of all >> problems in the region. Community oversight and long discussions on meta >> talk pages about any huge amount of grant proposals are now a thing of the >> past. But who cares? >> >> Unlike the previous wiki conferences, the wider Indian community >> did not get the invitation and space to actively take part in the decision >> making process from the very start of planning this conference which led to >> giving room to WMF staffs, who took over. Without community vigilance, a 3 >> days conference asked and spent 3 times more donation money than the last >> one and has set up precedences of many unwanted things which would burden >> future community programs and events in India. It's not at all surprising >> that even though no one was stopped, but a very few number of volunteers >> from my language community actually applied and participated in the >> conference, even being one of the most active community in the region. >> >> Regards, >> Bodhisattwa >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 4, 2023, 00:53 Subhashish [email protected] >> wrote: >> >>> I find this email better worded than the other one in this list a >>> few days back which was also about different issues. >>> >>> Some of these issues, though I'm not personally aware of, >>> certainly need to be addressed by WMF. >>> >>> Thank you for upholding the importance of the community by saying >>> -- "I am okay with WMF staff being paid, but it should not undermine unpaid >>> volunteers and the movement's ethos." Can't agree more. >>> >>> While I see public listing of WMF staff and contractors both >>> on-wiki [1] and the Foundation's official site, WMF staff in India might >>> mean staff and contractors who are hired both for long-term and short-term >>> and part-time roles. It could also mean those who play global roles (say, >>> engineering staffers) but reside in India and don't necessarily interface >>> only with the India-based community. Their participation in a national >>> level event could be an one-off thing. >>> >>> But those nuances apart, the volunteer and staff dynamics >>> certainly is a topic worth discussing. >>> >>> A worse social phenomenon in India is a foreigner being treated >>> with more dignity than a local. The intersectionality of caste, gender, >>> fluency in English, intergenerational privilege and many other social >>> factors play a role. I still think this is not a standalone issue and >>> should be discussed (and investigated if needed) keeping in mind the >>> intersectionality. >>> >>> 1. >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_Foundation_staff >>> >>> Subha >>> >>> On Wed, May 3, 2023, 11:09 PM Jayantilal Kothari < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Maryana Iskander and Wikimedia Foundation, >>>> >>>> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to request more >>>> transparency about the roles and responsibilities of WMF staff in India. I >>>> am assuming good faith and believe that any issues arising are >>>> unintentional; however, these occurrences seem to be negatively impacting >>>> the overall movement. >>>> >>>> It has come to my attention that WMF allocates a relatively small >>>> amount of funds to the Indian community. This implies that a significant >>>> portion of donor money is spent on staff, making it crucial to ensure that >>>> donors and the Wiki community are aware of how the funds are being utilized >>>> and the impact generated. >>>> >>>> Firstly, I have noticed that WMF hires non-community staff >>>> members who may be initially unfamiliar with the Wikimedia community and >>>> movement in general. This is not an issue as long as newly recruited staff >>>> members are willing to work collaboratively with the community, rather than >>>> competing with them. Unfortunately, there have been instances where this >>>> has not been the case, such as WMF India staff paying Instagram users >>>> without consulting the community, and the recent WikiConference India, >>>> where WMF staff overshadowed volunteer committees and took over volunteer >>>> roles during conference planning. >>>> >>>> Initially, I thought that privacy concerns might be the reason >>>> behind the lack of transparency. However, during the recent conference, I >>>> observed that such staff members were comfortable being on stage and being >>>> identified as WMF Staff amongst friends from the industry whom they invited >>>> to the conference. It appears that more people from the industry are aware >>>> of WMF India staff's existence than the community itself. Some staff >>>> members were keen to take credit for the entire movement and even >>>> conference planning in front of the volunteer community and friends from >>>> the industry. It might help and advance the careers of WMF India staff by >>>> showcasing WikiConference India on their resumes, but the main purpose of >>>> such community events is to give a chance to community leadership and to >>>> celebrate unpaid community members. I am okay with WMF staff being paid, >>>> but it should not undermine unpaid volunteers and the movement's ethos. >>>> >>>> The Wiki community looks up to WMF staff for support, but now >>>> there is a fear that WMF staff may hijack community programs and stages, >>>> with WikiConference India being a recent example. >>>> >>>> There seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the roles and >>>> responsibilities of WMF India staff members and their interactions with >>>> volunteer communities. The Wiki community is dedicated to the mission and >>>> will continue to thrive even without WMF staff. I believe it is crucial for >>>> WMF to publicly share the roles, responsibilities, and outcomes of the WMF >>>> India staff over the last few years. This transparency will enable >>>> community members and donors to appreciate the efforts of WMF India staff, >>>> as currently, the impact of their work remains unknown. >>>> >>>> I kindly request that WMF provides a list of all WMF India staff >>>> members and their achievements, so we can celebrate their accomplishments >>>> and collaborate with them more effectively. >>>> >>>> Looking forward to your response. >>>> >>>> With Regards, >>>> Jayantilal >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Jayantilal >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- >>>> [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia... >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- >>> [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia... >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia... > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- > [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to > [email protected] > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia...
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-- Regards,
Jayantilal
Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia... _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia...
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-- Regards,
Jayantilal
Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia...
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-- Regards,
Jayantilal
Sent from my iPhone
*Belinda Mbambo* Senior Manager: Global Movement Communications Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/
Hi everyone
Sorry for the long rant here , but this is a thought of mine, being an observer of the Indian community activities for many years.. I agree that this discussion is best said on the Indian mailing list, but since a senior staff has tried to respond to this query in an official way, i feel it is a must, that i must add here on the Wikimedia mailing list.
Jayantilal has questioned WMF on a very pressing topic for which the indian community has been discussing to no avail for more than almost a decade, if not more ..& has been very heavy on the minds of the community for a long time.
A few days ago, I came across the WMF India Community Consultation 2014 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Community_Consultation_2014 blog post https://diff.wikimedia.org/2014/11/13/india-community-consultation-2014/ and was proud of how, as an Indian community, we had achieved so many of the objectives we had set up. However, today, when I see this thread of organising the WikiConference India , I feel that this conference, in my opinion, has made a limited mark on the expectations of the larger Indian community. If the organizing team had modest objectives, it could have kept the name Wikiconference Hyderabad. However, keeping the name Wiki Conference India (WCI), the expectations of the community on a national level must be met.
A fellow editor from Sri Lanka had even questioned the importance of WCI in the Asian region on the talk page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WikiConference_India_2023#WCI_2023_Theme_Objectives_and_Its_Importance_to_the_Asian_Region, and an unsatisfactory answer was given by the organizing team. The objectives have to be very clear on why we are organizing this event, who do we invite, and on what scale we do this.
If the WMF staff is playing a major role in organizing the WikiConferenceIndia 23, what are the major objectives it plans to achieve? Yes, there is a problem of inadequate organic growth of volunteers. Does WMF think that it can solve this problem by throwing money at it, by helping to organize the WCI after 7 years, or does it have a concrete action plan?
WMF might try to reply to the justified doubts , but by redirecting the query to multiple project pages & links does not help in finding any solution to the ongoing problems . I think the current situation requires that after 9 years, another community consultation must be called, where all stakeholders are invited on an Indian level, and all these pressing concerns must be discussed.
Regards, Yohann
On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:01 PM Belinda Mbambo [email protected] wrote:
Dear Jayantilal,
The organizers of WikiConference India have already shared https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_India_2023/Discussions_and_Feedback more details about the event including staff engagement. Others invited you https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/NFZWXYLNF74FOEL2YIELHD4QKZDPU3J6/ to follow up on the talk page.
CIS also responded to your question https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/BH2BUNYSV7BCNJFNMUW3MFTDGQKDEW3W/ on the list. For your thoughts on their proposal, you can follow up on the grant page https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Programs/Wikimedia_Community_Fund/Centre_for_Internet_and_Society%27s_annual_work_plan_for_2023-2024. Please note decisions about funding are made by the regional funding committee https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Regions/South_Asia#Regional_Committee of volunteers and not by Wikimedia Foundation staff.
For your questions about hiring practices, you can read more here https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/05/03/building-a-global-staff-community-at-the-wikimedia-foundation/. If you have a question about existing projects, do feel free to contact that project's leads.
Your latest question about scholarships combines affiliate staff and contractors with Foundation staff and contractors. To clarify, staff and contractors of the Foundation are not eligible for scholarships based on their paid work.
Often though, staff and contractors of the Foundation come from the community itself and actively contribute to community initiatives as volunteers, and represent that work during different conferences.
Best regards,
*Belinda Mbambo* Senior Manager: Global Movement Communications Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Jayantilal Kothari [email protected] Date: Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 3:58 PM Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Request for Transparency Regarding WMF Staff in India
Dear Maryana Iskander and Wikimedia Foundation,
I hope I am not disturbing you or have asked you to be in some place which I should not have. Please note that my concerns are only in good faith and not anything more. Earlier also WMF staff have asked community members to respond on the mailing list and I have not done anything new. Why can't you reply ? If you cannot reply then why you cannot atleast acknowledge.
Staff continues to take over community work. Some staff are on scholarship to the Education Conference in Europe as volunteers, some for Wiki Loves Monuments Team discussion, some CIS staff in Universal Code Committee etc. Everything cannot be like they are doing in their individual capacity. Please note WMF contractors also take salaries which are higher than the average Indian salary. It is high time that a policy needs to come up on this with community discussion. Many people have said the same on this mailing list. Even if they are allowed, let there be a clear cut policy. Everything cannot be done by saying what they are doing in their individual capacity. If you cannot have volunteers who are only volunteers and not any full time or contractor or with CIS then what is the point.
One more person who was a volunteer at Wiki Conference has now become CIS staff. Job announcement came on 31st July 2022 and recruitment in May 2023. So late but they do not care to reply back. I also wanted to ask them if they will do hardware support in their grant but they did not reply. They have a budget of 1 Crore, 75 Lakhs, 82 Thousand and 4 Hundred. This is too much. If they do not want to give hardware then they should atleast talk to the community and share a plan. I will repeat from what I had said before, "This message is a reminder about the necessity of listening when the community needs to be heard, not just when it's convenient. It's a plea for transparency and accountability—cornerstones of our community and the Wikimedia movement.”
On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 2:51 AM, effe iets anders [email protected] wrote:
Hi Jayantilal,
as I'm reading this, mostly as an outsider from a different community who has great appreciation for everything that has been accomplished in various communities in India, I can feel the tension. This is unfortunately nothing new, and it's an ongoing balance that has to be struck between helping out as a staff member on one hand, and not undercutting the community to organize itself on the other. This is a challenge, even with the best of intentions. This only gets harder when there is a (real or perceived) struggle for influence/power. I have come to understand that India is an even more complex situation, due to the influence of CIS.
I noticed that the WCI organizers have put forward https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_India_2023/Discussions_and_Fe... in response to this thread. It might be beneficial for the conversation to try and follow up with this attempt to conversation, and see how far you get with regards to the transparency that you seek. If you can achieve this without the intervention of Maryana, this is probably more advantageous for everyone involved. That does not mean you have to agree with what is desirable, but at least you would be able to work from a common base of facts/information.
If there are aspects on that page that are possibly misleading from your point of view, or simply information that is missing, you might be interested in bringing this up on the talkpage.
Just a thought,
Lodewijk
On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 2:04 PM Jayantilal Kothari < [email protected]> wrote:
Dear Maryana,
Your Listening Tour has been a commendable initiative to understand the voice of the community. However, the essence of listening lies in its responsiveness.
Over ten days ago, we raised concerns that unfortunately remain unaddressed. This isn't a single person sentiment but a collective voice from the Indian Wikimedia community, a voice that has grown stronger since the recent Wiki Conference India.
We're concerned about the WMF India staff's involvement in community-led events, notably the Wiki Conference India. While their participation is welcome, there's a growing perception of encroachment on community-led initiatives. The community's autonomy is being compromised, and several experienced community members have voiced this concern on the public mailing list.
Furthermore, we've observed that the WMF India Staff is assisting community members in crafting emails and guiding them on how to handle this mailing list situation. As a community, we believe in the ability of our members to speak for themselves. Currently, it appears that only those on the WMF payroll—either through grant salary/contract or through WMF-funded CIS salary—are speaking on behalf of Wiki Conference India, seemingly under the guidance of WMF Staff India. We urge WMF India Staff to step back and allow the community to voice their concerns independently. Check the Wiki Conference India Team on Meta. Most of them are drawing salaries from WMF or CIS or have been previous employees in the last 5 years. Very few are people who have always been volunteers. Many of them have also not written WMF against their name because they say they did this conference as volunteers. Was there no volunteer to come forward and organize? This means WMF staff have not been able to grow the community.
We wish to understand the roles, responsibilities, and contributions of the WMF India staff who actively participated in the Wiki Conference India. Being paid by funds raised through volunteer-built platforms like Wikipedia, their active participation in community spaces calls for higher accountability.
WMF has spent so much money on Strategy 2030 but the India Conference had no session on it why? India is not important or what? Sunday there was a session on Strategy 2030 but it was removed without telling participants. Why?
We would like to clarify that this is not a request for personal information—since the identities of these staff members are already publicly known—but a call for professional transparency, as we seek to understand their specific roles and contributions. If these staff members were comfortable taking to the stage and receiving credit at the conference, they should be equally comfortable sharing the scope and impact of their work with the community that they serve. Their willingness to be in the public eye during the conference should extend to their professional commitments and achievements. We're keen to know about the partnerships they've formed over the past few years that have benefited Indian communities, the initiatives the communications team has launched beyond financial incentives for Instagram users, the community projects undertaken by other staff members, negative response on fundraising and the hiring practices aimed at empowering local user groups.
Considering the nature of these questions, we're interested in understanding your strategy for obtaining an unbiased picture of the situation. If the primary sources of feedback are the WMF India staff or their superiors, it might be influenced by the very concern we raise.
This message is a reminder about the necessity of listening when the community needs to be heard, not just when it's convenient. It's a plea for transparency and accountability—cornerstones of our community and the Wikimedia movement.
We understand that you might be busy, but we would appreciate at least an acknowledgment of this email, assuring us that our concerns have been heard and will be addressed.
We look forward to your acknowledgment and response.
On Sun, 14 May 2023 at 3:52 AM, Shyamal Bagchi [email protected] wrote:
My emails are also being censored. Why is this happening and who is doing it ?
On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 00:51, Wiki Prasad [email protected] wrote:
i say same thing, my email not posted. it is censored.
*Sent:* Monday, May 08, 2023 at 4:48 AM *From:* "Jayantilal Kothari" [email protected] *To:* "Wikimedia India Community list" < [email protected]>, [email protected] *Subject:* [Wikimediaindia-l] Request for Transparency Regarding WMF Staff in India Hello WCI 2023 Organizing team,
First of all, thank you for hosting the event. I appreciate your willingness to engage in discussions and provide clarifications on concerns related to the conference. However, I would like to remind you that this email thread is specifically addressed to the Wikimedia Foundation and Maryana Iskander.
I am curious if the Maryana/WMF has requested your team or given authorization for you to justify or defend their actions in this matter. As this thread focuses on WMF's actions and decisions in relation to the Indian community, it is crucial to maintain separate discussions for separate issues to ensure productive and organized conversations. I kindly request that you start a separate email thread or Meta-Wiki discussion for addressing concerns related to the conference itself.
Let's give the WMF the opportunity to address the concerns raised here directly. Thank you for your understanding, and once again, congratulations on organizing a successful event.
On Sun, 7 May 2023 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Kolbe [email protected] wrote:
Dear Bodhisattwa,
Thank you for your reply.
While Wiki[p/m]edia started out as a pure volunteer project, it has long occupied a sometimes uneasy position between some of the biggest and most valuable companies on earth, who use our free content to make money, and volunteers working for love. This makes culture clashes of some sort or another inevitable. I don't have a solution.
I also suspect that you have a point with the "white guilt". What this means, of course, is that people are still not "seen".
If you ever feel like writing an op-ed or report about these matters for the Wikipedia Signpost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost, please feel free to send me a mail or just drop into our Newsroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom. The Signpost hardly ever has content about India, let alone content written by Indian contributors. (The issue due to be published in a few hours' time is a rare exception.) It would be great to see that change.
Best, Andreas (User:Jayen466)
On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 6:55 PM Bodhisattwa < [email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Andreas, > > There is no denial that money is needed in our region to run > programs but there should always be a critical debate, if we are asking too > much amount and for the right cause. I can't talk about others but I come > from a cross-border language community which has always shown high regards > to the value of donation money and expressed concerns in the past, whenever > it has felt that money asked in a grant proposal is out of proportionate. > So, whenever a grant proposal comes from my language community or from the > two affiliates of the region, we brainstorm for days, if not months, to > understand if there remains any small chance to waste the valuable > resources which are to be entrusted upon us. For example, questions > naturally arises in our community that if we really need to or have the > luxury to spend this huge amount of around 10 million INR just for a 3-days > conference to meet and greet each other after a long time or could that > amount of money be invested on local affiliates and communities so that > they can sustain themselves and provide quality output for the next decade. > There has always been this debate and the people who talked about the > second option are quietly moving away from the movement as they were not > heard properly or were targeted for their critical analysis. We strongly > feel that throwing unnecessary amount of money to whatever proposal comes > over from the region is detrimental to the community dynamics as these > money spoils people in the communities, brings more mistrusts and > corruption and changes the motivation to contribute to the open knowledge > movement. Also, huge amount of money does not necessarily translate to > delivery of high quality output all the time, good results can come from > limited resources too, even with zero budget, if they are planned properly; > there are numerous success stories in our movement of those, which are > rarely acknowledged or celebrated. > > What we feel that there might be some 'white guilt' working in the > background to reverse colonial sins from the past in the regions which > might drive people from the west to approve more money in Africa and Asia > without consideration of local inputs. Any voices against these western > perspectives to flood local communities with huge amount of unnecessary > money are marked as counter-productive, ignored, silenced and bypassed with > different regulatory measures imposed upon the community until people stop > criticising and get fed up of being ignored. For example, personally, I > have developed apathy nowadays regarding whatever is happening around grant > process western to our state border of West Bengal until they directly > affects us and prefer to remain silent during their community review > process. > > By the way, I have no objection hiring WMF staffs from the region. > In fact, a number of staffs and contractors from the region are and were > highly respected for their support and understanding of the local > communities. But all are not beds of roses. There are multiple evidences of > opacities, ignorance, agenda pushing, bossing around, corporate mentality, > hijacking of community plans and projects etc. among staffs, which builds > walls of mistrusts separating them with the volunteers rather than breaking > them. I can't disagree to what Jayantilal implied in his statement. So, to > me, staffs are always welcome, but if they have no intention to listen and > support for community needs, then we frankly don't need them around our > communities to push their own agenda, we can manage ourselves. > > Regards, > Bodhisattwa > > > > On Thu, May 4, 2023, 18:30 Andreas Kolbe [email protected] wrote: > >> Hi Bodhisattwa and all, >> >> You raise an interesting point – that the influx of money appears >> to have a demotivating effect on Indian volunteers. This has also come up >> in discussion elsewhere. >> >> Now I have been one of those who have urged the WMF to spend more >> money in India. I have always felt that actual spending on the ground has >> not matched the Foundation's fundraising messages about how money is >> urgently needed to build capacity in Indian and African languages. And I >> have argued that hiring staff in India, e.g., makes more sense than hiring >> staff in the US, where salary expectations may run to hundreds of thousands >> of dollars per year. >> >> How would you resolve these competing considerations? >> >> Regards, >> Andreas (Jayen466) >> >> On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 3:21 AM Bodhisattwa < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Coincidentally, just yesterday afternoon, when we were having a >>> meeting in Kolkata with volunteers from West Bengal and Bangladesh, these >>> concerns came up among other things. We were wondering about the visible >>> impact of the increasing number of WMF staffs in India to improve our >>> editing and reading experiences, significant partnership development or >>> strengthening the communities in the last few years and if they have any >>> impact at all in our language community to make our life easier as >>> volunteers. >>> >>> Anyway, if the volunteer communities or team of organizers are not >>> strong and vigilant enough, there is always a chance to get something >>> hijacked by staffs. This is not new; it has happened before a number of >>> times and it will happen a lot more in the future. This could not be >>> avoided as I feel the spirit of volunteerism in the Indian communities is >>> much much weaker than the past and dying, if not already dead in some of >>> the cases. In the last few years, I have seen long term trusted community >>> members from all over the country leave the movement frustrated, heart >>> broken and exhausted, including from my language community. Increasing flow >>> of unnecessary money are rapidly changing the motivation of volunteers with >>> a strange notion prevailing nowadays that money is the solution of all >>> problems in the region. Community oversight and long discussions on meta >>> talk pages about any huge amount of grant proposals are now a thing of the >>> past. But who cares? >>> >>> Unlike the previous wiki conferences, the wider Indian community >>> did not get the invitation and space to actively take part in the decision >>> making process from the very start of planning this conference which led to >>> giving room to WMF staffs, who took over. Without community vigilance, a 3 >>> days conference asked and spent 3 times more donation money than the last >>> one and has set up precedences of many unwanted things which would burden >>> future community programs and events in India. It's not at all surprising >>> that even though no one was stopped, but a very few number of volunteers >>> from my language community actually applied and participated in the >>> conference, even being one of the most active community in the region. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Bodhisattwa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 4, 2023, 00:53 Subhashish [email protected] >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I find this email better worded than the other one in this list a >>>> few days back which was also about different issues. >>>> >>>> Some of these issues, though I'm not personally aware of, >>>> certainly need to be addressed by WMF. >>>> >>>> Thank you for upholding the importance of the community by saying >>>> -- "I am okay with WMF staff being paid, but it should not undermine unpaid >>>> volunteers and the movement's ethos." Can't agree more. >>>> >>>> While I see public listing of WMF staff and contractors both >>>> on-wiki [1] and the Foundation's official site, WMF staff in India might >>>> mean staff and contractors who are hired both for long-term and short-term >>>> and part-time roles. It could also mean those who play global roles (say, >>>> engineering staffers) but reside in India and don't necessarily interface >>>> only with the India-based community. Their participation in a national >>>> level event could be an one-off thing. >>>> >>>> But those nuances apart, the volunteer and staff dynamics >>>> certainly is a topic worth discussing. >>>> >>>> A worse social phenomenon in India is a foreigner being treated >>>> with more dignity than a local. The intersectionality of caste, gender, >>>> fluency in English, intergenerational privilege and many other social >>>> factors play a role. I still think this is not a standalone issue and >>>> should be discussed (and investigated if needed) keeping in mind the >>>> intersectionality. >>>> >>>> 1. >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_Foundation_staff >>>> >>>> Subha >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 3, 2023, 11:09 PM Jayantilal Kothari < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Maryana Iskander and Wikimedia Foundation, >>>>> >>>>> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to request more >>>>> transparency about the roles and responsibilities of WMF staff in India. I >>>>> am assuming good faith and believe that any issues arising are >>>>> unintentional; however, these occurrences seem to be negatively impacting >>>>> the overall movement. >>>>> >>>>> It has come to my attention that WMF allocates a relatively >>>>> small amount of funds to the Indian community. This implies that a >>>>> significant portion of donor money is spent on staff, making it crucial to >>>>> ensure that donors and the Wiki community are aware of how the funds are >>>>> being utilized and the impact generated. >>>>> >>>>> Firstly, I have noticed that WMF hires non-community staff >>>>> members who may be initially unfamiliar with the Wikimedia community and >>>>> movement in general. This is not an issue as long as newly recruited staff >>>>> members are willing to work collaboratively with the community, rather than >>>>> competing with them. Unfortunately, there have been instances where this >>>>> has not been the case, such as WMF India staff paying Instagram users >>>>> without consulting the community, and the recent WikiConference India, >>>>> where WMF staff overshadowed volunteer committees and took over volunteer >>>>> roles during conference planning. >>>>> >>>>> Initially, I thought that privacy concerns might be the reason >>>>> behind the lack of transparency. However, during the recent conference, I >>>>> observed that such staff members were comfortable being on stage and being >>>>> identified as WMF Staff amongst friends from the industry whom they invited >>>>> to the conference. It appears that more people from the industry are aware >>>>> of WMF India staff's existence than the community itself. Some staff >>>>> members were keen to take credit for the entire movement and even >>>>> conference planning in front of the volunteer community and friends from >>>>> the industry. It might help and advance the careers of WMF India staff by >>>>> showcasing WikiConference India on their resumes, but the main purpose of >>>>> such community events is to give a chance to community leadership and to >>>>> celebrate unpaid community members. I am okay with WMF staff being paid, >>>>> but it should not undermine unpaid volunteers and the movement's ethos. >>>>> >>>>> The Wiki community looks up to WMF staff for support, but now >>>>> there is a fear that WMF staff may hijack community programs and stages, >>>>> with WikiConference India being a recent example. >>>>> >>>>> There seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the roles and >>>>> responsibilities of WMF India staff members and their interactions with >>>>> volunteer communities. The Wiki community is dedicated to the mission and >>>>> will continue to thrive even without WMF staff. I believe it is crucial for >>>>> WMF to publicly share the roles, responsibilities, and outcomes of the WMF >>>>> India staff over the last few years. This transparency will enable >>>>> community members and donors to appreciate the efforts of WMF India staff, >>>>> as currently, the impact of their work remains unknown. >>>>> >>>>> I kindly request that WMF provides a list of all WMF India staff >>>>> members and their achievements, so we can celebrate their accomplishments >>>>> and collaborate with them more effectively. >>>>> >>>>> Looking forward to your response. >>>>> >>>>> With Regards, >>>>> Jayantilal >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Jayantilal >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia... >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- >>>> [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia... >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- >>> [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia... >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia... > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- > [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to > [email protected] > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia...
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-- Regards,
Jayantilal
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-- Regards,
Jayantilal
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-- Regards,
Jayantilal
Sent from my iPhone
*Belinda Mbambo* Senior Manager: Global Movement Communications Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/ _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/... To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
this meta page took my attention (kindly jump to the 19 Nov 2023 paragraph): https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_India_2023/Open_Community_Cal...
I would appreciate response from the mentioned people on the following issues: *why "Hindi **Community** activity updates" needs to be presented by Praveen/Rachit {User:PDas (WMF) and User:RASharma (WMF)}, who don't represent the **community**? *why the movement strategy activity needs to be led by the above two + one wci lead? *why the call needs to be scheduled in parallel to the cwc final? the recent wikiwomancamp was also scheduled during navatri? considerable number of bharatiya female contributors couldn't join due to this which includes my wikipedia colleague who was sad and couldn't spend the festival with open mind. don't the current wmf staff members who are clearly snatching the lead of these community issues care about what the indian people are comfortable with? why the current wmf staff members make us to choose from either wikimedia or any national important event? a few days ago, i didn't agree with jayantilalji for being extra aggressive, now i also think ki the current wmf staff members are doing this to get promotions and and to show this to the wmf high officers.
apki jankarike ke liye bata de ki hum bewakoof nahin hain
hope the questions will not be neglected.
your sincerely, harish