Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in force. Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that, andI there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
"Rogol"
Try asking the community. This mailing list is a small subset of the community. Or is that a rhetorical question? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rogol Domedonfors Sent: Thursday, 02 March 2017 9:32 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in force. Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that, andI there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
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Rogol,
Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it more difficult than it is already, OK?
Pine
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in force. Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that, andI there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
I'm not asking Matt. I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W [email protected] wrote:
Rogol,
Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it more difficult than it is already, OK?
Pine
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that,
andI
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list, which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish from forum shopping.
On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
I'm not asking Matt. I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W [email protected] wrote:
Rogol,
Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it more difficult than it is already, OK?
Pine
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that,
andI
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly have any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
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David
Forum shopping is usually considered to be taking an issue from one forum to another hoping to get the answer you want. I do not believe I have raised this question in any other forum. I hope that helps you make the distinction your are having difficulty with. Please explain what you believe to be the relevant community and where you would expect to publicise these issues in order to engage with them.
If the Code is to be imposed by WMF fiat, then this forum seems an approrpiate place for the Foundation to publish their instructions.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list, which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish from forum shopping.
On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
I'm not asking Matt. I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W [email protected] wrote:
Rogol,
Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it
more
difficult than it is already, OK?
Pine
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
wrote:
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct
for
Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that,
andI
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly
have
any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
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This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.
I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community in question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this topic here it would have been far more appropriate to raise your concerns on a more aligned mailing list such as wikitech-l. All of whom would be affected by the code of conduct and who have been notified regularly about it.
I also suggest you keep in mind that the technical community does have a higher percentage of staff members from many organisations in comparison to the number of volunteers. Simply being staff members does not preclude them from being a part of that community and does not preclude their ability to participate in their own self-governance.
It would be hypercritical of us if we as the wikimedia-l list were to parachute into the governance of a community relatively few of us are a part of.
Seddon
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list, which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish from forum shopping.
On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
I'm not asking Matt. I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this very list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W [email protected] wrote:
Rogol,
Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect. Try asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it
more
difficult than it is already, OK?
Pine
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
wrote:
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of conduct
for
Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against that,
andI
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly
have
any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
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Well, one of us is in the wrong place. I'm posting to the list described as "Discussion list for *the Wikimedia community* and the larger network of organizations [...] supporting its work." – my emphasis. It seems that "This mailing list can, for example, be used for: [...]
The initial planning phase of potential new Wikimedia projects and initiatives Organizational issues of the Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations, others Discussing the setup of local Wikimedia chapters Developing and evaluating grant-making programs Planning elections, polls and votes Discussion of projects that don't already have a mailing list Finding ways to raise funds Other Wikimedia-related issues
My post relates to items 1,2,5 and 8 on that list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Joseph Seddon [email protected] wrote:
This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.
I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community in question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this topic here it would have been far more appropriate to raise your concerns on a more aligned mailing list such as wikitech-l. All of whom would be affected by the code of conduct and who have been notified regularly about it.
I also suggest you keep in mind that the technical community does have a higher percentage of staff members from many organisations in comparison to the number of volunteers. Simply being staff members does not preclude them from being a part of that community and does not preclude their ability to participate in their own self-governance.
It would be hypercritical of us if we as the wikimedia-l list were to parachute into the governance of a community relatively few of us are a part of.
Seddon
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list, which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish from forum shopping.
On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected]
wrote:
I'm not asking Matt. I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this
very
list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W [email protected] wrote:
Rogol,
Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect.
Try
asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make it
more
difficult than it is already, OK?
Pine
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
wrote:
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of
conduct
for
Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said so explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now in
force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against
that,
andI
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can hardly
have
any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in force?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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<mailto:[email protected]?subject=
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-- Seddon
*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Rogol,
Yes, to a point. But if we tried to have every discussion on this list that was categorized as "Organizational issues of the Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations", "Planning elections, polls and votes", and "Other Wikimedia-related issues", this list would be so flooded with traffic as to be nearly unusable. So discretion is advised in how many new topics one brings to this list.
If you ask my opinion of "is the TCoC now in force", the answer would be no, but I don't know that it's a wise use of time to ask that question on this list in present circumstances. If WMF decides to try to enforce the TCoC without an RfC on the whole document, then I think it would be fine to come back to this list for discussion.
The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary, and I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our mutual goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots work better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF to make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience works better than demands.
Pine
On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
Well, one of us is in the wrong place. I'm posting to the list described as "Discussion list for *the Wikimedia community* and the larger network of organizations [...] supporting its work." – my emphasis. It seems that "This mailing list can, for example, be used for: [...]
The initial planning phase of potential new Wikimedia projects and initiatives Organizational issues of the Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations, others Discussing the setup of local Wikimedia chapters Developing and evaluating grant-making programs Planning elections, polls and votes Discussion of projects that don't already have a mailing list Finding ways to raise funds Other Wikimedia-related issues
My post relates to items 1,2,5 and 8 on that list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Joseph Seddon [email protected] wrote:
This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.
I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community
in
question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this
topic
here it would have been far more appropriate to raise your concerns on a more aligned mailing list such as wikitech-l. All of whom would be
affected
by the code of conduct and who have been notified regularly about it.
I also suggest you keep in mind that the technical community does have a higher percentage of staff members from many organisations in comparison
to
the number of volunteers. Simply being staff members does not preclude
them
from being a part of that community and does not preclude their ability
to
participate in their own self-governance.
It would be hypercritical of us if we as the wikimedia-l list were to parachute into the governance of a community relatively few of us are a part of.
Seddon
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list, which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish from forum shopping.
On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected]
wrote:
I'm not asking Matt. I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this
very
list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W [email protected] wrote:
Rogol,
Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect.
Try
asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make
it
more
difficult than it is already, OK?
Pine
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
wrote:
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of
conduct
for
Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said
so
explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now
in
force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against
that,
andI
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can
hardly
have
any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in
force?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=
unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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-- Seddon
*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
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Pine,
On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 11:45 PM, you wrote:
[...]
The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary, and I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our mutual goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots work better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF to make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience works better than demands.
Unfortunately cultural change is unlikely to happen against a background of perpetual unwarranted self-congratulation and complacency. A clear articulation of areas needing improvement and suggestions for ways of improving may not always make for comfortable reading, but I make no apology for presenting that position. I would have been happy to have been able to be more detailed in my suggestions, but it seems to me that the Foundation is, and has been for some time, unable or unwilling to acknowledge, let alone respond to or engage with, the attempts by numerous community members to initiate a serious engagement. Perhaps your experience in this area has been better, and if so, I would be pleased to hear from you what your successes have been and how you have achieved them.
"Rogol"
Hi Rogol,
Sure, I'd be glad to talk with you about this. I think that a more interactive discussion might be helpful. Would you be willing to meet me on IRC? If so, could you email me off-list so that we can set up a time and channel for a meeting?
Thanks,
Pine
On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:21 AM, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
Pine,
On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 11:45 PM, you wrote:
[...]
The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary,
and
I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our
mutual
goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots
work
better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF
to
make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience works better than demands.
Unfortunately cultural change is unlikely to happen against a background of perpetual unwarranted self-congratulation and complacency. A clear articulation of areas needing improvement and suggestions for ways of improving may not always make for comfortable reading, but I make no apology for presenting that position. I would have been happy to have been able to be more detailed in my suggestions, but it seems to me that the Foundation is, and has been for some time, unable or unwilling to acknowledge, let alone respond to or engage with, the attempts by numerous community members to initiate a serious engagement. Perhaps your experience in this area has been better, and if so, I would be pleased to hear from you what your successes have been and how you have achieved them.
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, You seek cultural change but what is it that you want to change? You are outspoken and as others commented an edge that is more than confrontational. My appreciation is one where I fail to see the connection with what we do, it is only about how we do it. That is in my opinion overrated.
In many ways, I have found that our community is overly self observed. They care mostly about their patch and when changes happen they are possessive; they hardly care about how together with a more communal effort we make more progress. I give you one example; I got in contact with people who (take) care of the Black Lunch Table. We discussed the issues with the project and we worked to manage the project largely using Wikidata. So all the 900+ people including the "red links" where added to Wikidata. After a discussion at Wikidata we now use "catalog" with "Black Lunch Table" to indicate the items involved. The benefits: in stead of three Wikitables that have to be maintained, Listeria does all three based on the same data. We found that many other Wikipedias have articles on the people identified by the Black Lunch Table and the same queries should work on those Wikipedias as well. The consequence is that more time can be spend on actually caring about the project, the articles and even the data.
My point is that community is NOT about how we are supposed to do things because if we had to ask the community for this experiment, we would have no answer. It is because true people from the community, people who make a difference for the projects themselves were involved, they allowed for the experiment and are starting to see their benefit and the benefit for us all. Now THAT is a cultural change and my challenge is old; I want to discuss quality with Wiki people and I want us to do better. When we do better, we will be better able to recognise fake facts.
For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in the mud as it stifles initiative? Thanks, GerardM
On 5 March 2017 at 11:21, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
Pine,
On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 11:45 PM, you wrote:
[...]
The way that you phrase your questions sometimes comes across to me as having an edge than is more confrontational than I think is necessary,
and
I am finding the tone to be a distraction from what is, I think, our
mutual
goal of trying to align WMF more with the community. Sometimes carrots
work
better than sticks. I have a long list of changes that I would like WMF
to
make, but cultural change is a long term process, and sometimes patience works better than demands.
Unfortunately cultural change is unlikely to happen against a background of perpetual unwarranted self-congratulation and complacency. A clear articulation of areas needing improvement and suggestions for ways of improving may not always make for comfortable reading, but I make no apology for presenting that position. I would have been happy to have been able to be more detailed in my suggestions, but it seems to me that the Foundation is, and has been for some time, unable or unwilling to acknowledge, let alone respond to or engage with, the attempts by numerous community members to initiate a serious engagement. Perhaps your experience in this area has been better, and if so, I would be pleased to hear from you what your successes have been and how you have achieved them.
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
Gerard
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in the mud as it stifles initiative?
A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware. We need to establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to deliver quality products that support the mission effectively. Do you think we have those already? Or do you think we can do without them?
"Rogol"
We have 61000 editors that made more the 5 edits last month and 8800 making more then 100 edits. Last election to the Board attracted 5500 voters. These figures gives a magnitude of the numbers in the community.
The number of active on this list are around 50-100, and normal participations in meta discussion (except when it was for Visual editor) are at best 100-200.
I truly believe we should not be content to say these 100-200 are the community or spokespersons for the community. And I admire the approach being made by WMF in the strategy project, to actively try to reach out to a broader audience then these 100-200
So I believe her has always been an issue of the dialogue between the community and WMF, both referring to who is the community and the dialogue in itself. But I do see that the approach being taken by WMF now and lately does a lot to resolve this issue and and is worth both praise and support
And I do would like to see less of "We the community" by people on this list
Anders
Den 2017-03-06 kl. 20:07, skrev Rogol Domedonfors:
Gerard
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in the mud as it stifles initiative?
A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware. We need to establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to deliver quality products that support the mission effectively. Do you think we have those already? Or do you think we can do without them?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
Anders,
I agree that there have been some positive developments in the WMF-community relationship over the last year or so. I think that we hit a rough patch in the past few months, and I'm hoping that it is behind us.
Figuring out how to gauge community sentiment is a really hard problem. RfCs and email lists both have issues with the limitations of self-selection, and even as a regular contributor to this list I think that consensus on this list among 10 people in a thread is not the same as consensus among 100 people in an RfC or the tens of thousands in the entire Wikiverse. I like the idea of surveys with random samples, and ENWP has tried to get broader representation of people in RfCs using bot invitations to participate. Broad surveys and dialogues are time-consuming and the methodology can be challenging. I'm not sure what to suggest to improve our methods of gauging community sentiment. I think that all of our tools have limitations. I'd be glad to discuss that in a separate thread if you're interested; I think of this as being both a research challenge and a governance challenge .
Pine
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Anders Wennersten <[email protected]
wrote:
We have 61000 editors that made more the 5 edits last month and 8800 making more then 100 edits. Last election to the Board attracted 5500 voters. These figures gives a magnitude of the numbers in the community.
The number of active on this list are around 50-100, and normal participations in meta discussion (except when it was for Visual editor) are at best 100-200.
I truly believe we should not be content to say these 100-200 are the community or spokespersons for the community. And I admire the approach being made by WMF in the strategy project, to actively try to reach out to a broader audience then these 100-200
So I believe her has always been an issue of the dialogue between the community and WMF, both referring to who is the community and the dialogue in itself. But I do see that the approach being taken by WMF now and lately does a lot to resolve this issue and and is worth both praise and support
And I do would like to see less of "We the community" by people on this list
Anders
Den 2017-03-06 kl. 20:07, skrev Rogol Domedonfors:
Gerard
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to
support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in the mud as it stifles initiative?
A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware. We need to
establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to deliver quality products that support the mission effectively. Do you think we have those already? Or do you think we can do without them?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
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Agreed, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Anders Wennersten Sent: Monday, 06 March 2017 9:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?
We have 61000 editors that made more the 5 edits last month and 8800 making more then 100 edits. Last election to the Board attracted 5500 voters. These figures gives a magnitude of the numbers in the community.
The number of active on this list are around 50-100, and normal participations in meta discussion (except when it was for Visual editor) are at best 100-200.
I truly believe we should not be content to say these 100-200 are the community or spokespersons for the community. And I admire the approach being made by WMF in the strategy project, to actively try to reach out to a broader audience then these 100-200
So I believe her has always been an issue of the dialogue between the community and WMF, both referring to who is the community and the dialogue in itself. But I do see that the approach being taken by WMF now and lately does a lot to resolve this issue and and is worth both praise and support
And I do would like to see less of "We the community" by people on this list
Anders
Den 2017-03-06 kl. 20:07, skrev Rogol Domedonfors:
Gerard
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in the mud as it stifles initiative?
A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware. We need to establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to deliver quality products that support the mission effectively. Do you think we have those already? Or do you think we can do without them?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
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Agreed as well. Anders, that is one of the most sensible posts I've seen on this list in a long time.
Adrian Raddatz
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:44 PM, Peter Southwood < [email protected]> wrote:
Agreed, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Anders Wennersten Sent: Monday, 06 March 2017 9:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Is the Code of Conduct in force?
We have 61000 editors that made more the 5 edits last month and 8800 making more then 100 edits. Last election to the Board attracted 5500 voters. These figures gives a magnitude of the numbers in the community.
The number of active on this list are around 50-100, and normal participations in meta discussion (except when it was for Visual editor) are at best 100-200.
I truly believe we should not be content to say these 100-200 are the community or spokespersons for the community. And I admire the approach being made by WMF in the strategy project, to actively try to reach out to a broader audience then these 100-200
So I believe her has always been an issue of the dialogue between the community and WMF, both referring to who is the community and the dialogue in itself. But I do see that the approach being taken by WMF now and lately does a lot to resolve this issue and and is worth both praise and support
And I do would like to see less of "We the community" by people on this list
Anders
Den 2017-03-06 kl. 20:07, skrev Rogol Domedonfors:
Gerard
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick in the mud as it stifles initiative?
A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware. We need to establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to deliver quality products that support the mission effectively. Do you think we have those already? Or do you think we can do without them?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
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Hoi, As far as I am concerned we have working and workable procedures. The problem that I see is that the primacy is not with the "community" in everything. We have multiple communities and there is no single subset that can claim sovereignty over everything with the possible exception of the board of the Wikimedia Foundation. Who has an explicit role in this.
What I have observed is that there is too much discussion that can be characterised with "turf war" and too little discussion about what it is we do and how we can improve on it. Quality of the content of our projects trumps what some of the community want every time. We are so engrossed in what we do and for most of the vocal ones it is English Wikipedia so much so that we accept its resolutions as resolutions. They are often baked in the software and to be honest that is extremely problematic.
When you start with our primary objective; sharing the sum of all knowledge, the experiment performed on the Volapük Wikipedia is of extreme interest. It generated a lot of articles using translation software and the result was a lot of interest including people reading it. Fast forward and you find articles created based on DATA for Wikipedias that are actually useful. These articles provide a purpose and are read. People still object because their role as an editor is diminished and "who is going to update when the data is wrong?". Issues like this can be solved but they do not get attention by the WMF staff because of "the community". They do not get attention from the "community leaders" because obviously it would not play well with "their" community.
Just consider what we are about. Are we about what we aim to achieve or are we about whatever "community" and the interplay with its "adversary" the Foundation? I do care about what we aim to achieve, I resent the inattention our objectives get. Thanks, GerardM
On 6 March 2017 at 20:07, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected] wrote:
Gerard
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:28 AM, you wrote:
For Rogol and Pine I have an additional challenge; when the WMF is to support the community, is their time better spend serving quality or is their time better spend discussing endless procedures that make us stick
in
the mud as it stifles initiative?
A fallacious dichotomy, as no doubt you were well aware. We need to establish working and workable procedures that allow Community and Foundation to engage together in planning at the level of long-term strategy and medium-term technical roadmap so that the WMF are able to deliver quality products that support the mission effectively. Do you think we have those already? Or do you think we can do without them?
"Rogol" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
I get the impression that the majority of the people in this subcommunity feel that this decision is well on its place with the technical community, that would be most heavily impacted by it.
So I'd say, lets leave it at that.
Lodewijk
2017-03-04 21:27 GMT+01:00 Rogol Domedonfors [email protected]:
Well, one of us is in the wrong place. I'm posting to the list described as "Discussion list for *the Wikimedia community* and the larger network of organizations [...] supporting its work." – my emphasis. It seems that "This mailing list can, for example, be used for: [...]
The initial planning phase of potential new Wikimedia projects and initiatives Organizational issues of the Wikimedia Foundation, chapter organizations, others Discussing the setup of local Wikimedia chapters Developing and evaluating grant-making programs Planning elections, polls and votes Discussion of projects that don't already have a mailing list Finding ways to raise funds Other Wikimedia-related issues
My post relates to items 1,2,5 and 8 on that list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Joseph Seddon [email protected] wrote:
This list is *a* community but it certainly does not constitute The Community™ nor are we the community affected by this code of conduct.
I suggest raising this in venues appropriate to the particular community
in
question, in this case the technical community. Before bringing this
topic
here it would have been far more appropriate to raise your concerns on a more aligned mailing list such as wikitech-l. All of whom would be
affected
by the code of conduct and who have been notified regularly about it.
I also suggest you keep in mind that the technical community does have a higher percentage of staff members from many organisations in comparison
to
the number of volunteers. Simply being staff members does not preclude
them
from being a part of that community and does not preclude their ability
to
participate in their own self-governance.
It would be hypercritical of us if we as the wikimedia-l list were to parachute into the governance of a community relatively few of us are a part of.
Seddon
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
This assumes the relevant Community is here now on this very list, which is an extremely questionable assumption. As has been noted ad nauseam already. At this point this thread appears hard to distinguish from forum shopping.
On 2 March 2017 at 17:16, Rogol Domedonfors [email protected]
wrote:
I'm not asking Matt. I'm asking the Community – here, now, on this
very
list.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Pine W [email protected] wrote:
Rogol,
Please don't assume that Matt thinks that the TCoC is now in effect.
Try
asking him, preferably on the relevant talk page.
I'm well aware of the challenges with the TCoC, but let's not make
it
more
difficult than it is already, OK?
Pine
On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:31 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
wrote:
Matt Flaschen has declared the final amendment to the code of
conduct
for
Wikimedia technical spaces approved and although he has not said
so
explicitly, I assume that his current position is that it is now
in
force.
Even asuming that is correct, and previous consensus was against
that,
andI
there is still signficiant disagreement on this list, it can
hardly
have
any practical effect until it is published. But first --
Does the Community accept that this Code of Conduct is now in
force?
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-- Seddon
*Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
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