---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WereSpielChequers [email protected] Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57 Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons To:
If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last couple of years.
I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the classic editor.
Regards
Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
[copy of my reply on the original list]
I've considered it; and decided not to.
For one thing, when a new user sees a diff, either via a link on a talk page, an article's history, a user's contributions, or their own watchlist they are exposed to Wikicode, and so need a basic understanding of how it works.
On 30 July 2015 at 13:00, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WereSpielChequers [email protected] Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57 Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons To:
If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last couple of years.
I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the classic editor.
Regards
Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
Wikimedia UK mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
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Hoi, was happy to learn that we made progress. Now I learn that there is always another rationalisation why "it is not good enough for me and for newbies".
I am past the phase of "it is not good enough for me" and I stopped editing Wikipedia. Just a thought to reconsider assumptions. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 July 2015 at 15:09, Andy Mabbett [email protected] wrote:
[copy of my reply on the original list]
I've considered it; and decided not to.
For one thing, when a new user sees a diff, either via a link on a talk page, an article's history, a user's contributions, or their own watchlist they are exposed to Wikicode, and so need a basic understanding of how it works.
On 30 July 2015 at 13:00, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WereSpielChequers [email protected] Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57 Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach
editathons
To:
If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last couple of years.
I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the classic editor.
Regards
Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
Wikimedia UK mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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-- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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We (in Amical) always try to teach editing using the visual editor, it's much easier for newbies, especially for older (+40) people or non-techies. Obviously we also mention "that other tab which leads to some weird code" but we almost never dig into it, it's not necessary for them to know wikicode in order to successfully contribute to wikipedia. Everything is easier with VE.
*Arnau Duran Ferrero* www.arnauduran.net
[image: Facebook] http://www.facebook.com/arnauduran [image: Twitter] http://www.twitter.com/arnauduran [image: LinkedIn] http://www.linkedin.com/in/arnauduran
2015-07-30 15:51 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen [email protected]:
Hoi, was happy to learn that we made progress. Now I learn that there is always another rationalisation why "it is not good enough for me and for newbies".
I am past the phase of "it is not good enough for me" and I stopped editing Wikipedia. Just a thought to reconsider assumptions. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 July 2015 at 15:09, Andy Mabbett [email protected] wrote:
[copy of my reply on the original list]
I've considered it; and decided not to.
For one thing, when a new user sees a diff, either via a link on a talk page, an article's history, a user's contributions, or their own watchlist they are exposed to Wikicode, and so need a basic understanding of how it works.
On 30 July 2015 at 13:00, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WereSpielChequers [email protected] Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57 Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach
editathons
To:
If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last couple of years.
I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the classic editor.
Regards
Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
Wikimedia UK mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
-- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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Hello
Same experience in France: workshops/editathons are VE oriented, because VE is easier to grasp. We also introduce wikitext, but without details. We have experienced withshops with only wikitext or both technologies, but they were less successful than VE-only workshops (people are afraid of code/syntax and the more you say it is easy, the more they doubt of it :)).
Benoît Evellin Wikimédia France volunteer Rennes' local group www.wikimedia.fr/rennes
2015-07-30 16:36 GMT+02:00 Arnau Duran [email protected]:
We (in Amical) always try to teach editing using the visual editor, it's much easier for newbies, especially for older (+40) people or non-techies. Obviously we also mention "that other tab which leads to some weird code" but we almost never dig into it, it's not necessary for them to know wikicode in order to successfully contribute to wikipedia. Everything is easier with VE.
*Arnau Duran Ferrero* www.arnauduran.net
[image: Facebook] http://www.facebook.com/arnauduran [image: Twitter] http://www.twitter.com/arnauduran [image: LinkedIn] http://www.linkedin.com/in/arnauduran
2015-07-30 15:51 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen [email protected]:
Hoi, was happy to learn that we made progress. Now I learn that there is
always
another rationalisation why "it is not good enough for me and for
newbies".
I am past the phase of "it is not good enough for me" and I stopped
editing
Wikipedia. Just a thought to reconsider assumptions. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 July 2015 at 15:09, Andy Mabbett [email protected]
wrote:
[copy of my reply on the original list]
I've considered it; and decided not to.
For one thing, when a new user sees a diff, either via a link on a talk page, an article's history, a user's contributions, or their own watchlist they are exposed to Wikicode, and so need a basic understanding of how it works.
On 30 July 2015 at 13:00, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WereSpielChequers [email protected] Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57 Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach
editathons
To:
If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was
a
"won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old
PC
at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the
attendees
if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last couple of years.
I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the classic editor.
Regards
Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
Wikimedia UK mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[email protected] Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
-- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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On 30 July 2015 at 15:36, Arnau Duran [email protected] wrote:
especially for older (+40) people
What like Jimmy Wales, Tim Berners-Lee and Vint Cerf?
I've been doing this in Israel for a while already. (In Hebrew! From right to left! Thanks to User:Mooeypoo [cced], she is awesome!)
It's pretty successful.
Basic formatting, headings, and citations are far, far easier to explain using VE.
I do *mention* the source editor, because it's inevitable for understanding talk pages and diffs, but I dedicate far less time to it than I did at workshops three years ago. This leaves more time to do actual article writing. Some people actually stay as editors afterwards (sorry, I don't have a precise number).
I'm doing this every three or four months or so, and it's amazing to see the progress and the bug-fixing. A year ago writing an image description was broken in Hebrew - now it works. A year ago it was impossible to add tables - now it's not just possible, but easy. A year ago it was weird to add footnotes - now it's much nicer; not perfect, but already better than explaining <ref> tags (for a lot of newbies seeing ANY tags at all is an immediate showstopper that renders the whole workshop useless). Using VE in workshops is also great for finding and reporting useful bugs - looking at new users always is.
Wikimedia Israel also uses VE for most of the training materials that it produces in the last year or so.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-30 15:00 GMT+03:00 David Gerard [email protected]:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WereSpielChequers [email protected] Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57 Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons To:
If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last couple of years.
I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the classic editor.
Regards
Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
Wikimedia UK mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe
On 30 July 2015 at 14:43, Amir E. Aharoni [email protected] wrote:
I've been doing this in Israel for a while already. (In Hebrew! From right to left! Thanks to User:Mooeypoo [cced], she is awesome!) It's pretty successful.
Yes, I recall a blog post explaining bidirectional and mixed-script issues, and that basically VE would have to become the first mixed-script editor to be any good at all at handling this stuff :-) So, how usable is it for you mixing up RTL and LTR?
- d.
Yes, I recall a blog post explaining bidirectional and mixed-script issues, and that basically VE would have to become the first mixed-script editor to be any good at all at handling this stuff :-) So, how usable is it for you mixing up RTL and LTR?
Until summer 2013 it was totally unusable in right-to-left languages. In left-to-right languages it was very buggy, but usable.
These days it's totally usable in right-to-left. Very roughly, the average is about 250 edits out of 2500 in the main space every day. (Did I say that these are super-rough numbers? Maybe Moriel or James have something better.)
There are some bugs in RTL support, but they are all minor. Largely, it's as usable now as in left-to-right.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-30 16:48 GMT+03:00 David Gerard [email protected]:
On 30 July 2015 at 14:43, Amir E. Aharoni [email protected] wrote:
I've been doing this in Israel for a while already. (In Hebrew! From
right
to left! Thanks to User:Mooeypoo [cced], she is awesome!) It's pretty successful.
Yes, I recall a blog post explaining bidirectional and mixed-script issues, and that basically VE would have to become the first mixed-script editor to be any good at all at handling this stuff :-) So, how usable is it for you mixing up RTL and LTR?
- d.
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Strongly seconded.
This makes copyedits and typo correction - the first step of editing - 15 seconds rather than 150. (It could be much faster still if the edit summary process weren't so elaborate :) just let anyone doubleclick to edit a single word, and autosave it as a minor edit without asking...)
The joy of seeing citations autocomplete is immediate and lasting.
In my experience, the main problem with using VE for everything is still the inability to sign talk page comments! That's very confusing even for me when I have to switch b/t editors.
SJ (helping run another editathon for chemists at the upcoming American Chemical Society's 250th anniversary :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Boston/American_Chemical_Soci...
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 8:00 AM, David Gerard [email protected] wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WereSpielChequers [email protected] Date: 30 July 2015 at 12:57 Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] visual Editor is now worth using in outreach editathons To:
If anyone is still running outreach editathons to try and recruit new editors, you might want to consider using visual editor. I spoke to some of the WMF people at Wikimania and apparently the issue of it running very very slowly on old kit has recently been largely addressed. I've pointed out in the past that as long as that bug was a "won't fix" you couldn't promote Visual Editor at outreach editathons because even if all the laptops look pretty new, there could well be someone present using a borrowed laptop and intending to use an old PC at home. Since we really can't start an editathon asking the attendees if they all use new computers at home, and then reverting to the classic editor if someone says their machine was bought in 2010 I and several others have been ignoring the Visual Editor for the last couple of years.
I have just run a quick test on this myself using a friend's old PC and V/E does now work, though it is still a little slower than the classic editor.
Regards
Jonathan / WereSpielChequers
Wikimedia UK mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
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